On August 8, in Kyiv, not far from the Swiss Embassy in Ukraine, on the initiative of our Association and in cooperation with the Georgian community of the capital, with the participation of people’s deputies, a picket rally was held in connection with the anniversary of the beginning of the Russian-Georgian war. At the same time, a similar event was held near the Swiss Embassy in Tbilisi, with the participation of Georgian politicians and public figures; in both capitals, the issue of the territories occupied by the aggressor, including Crimea, was raised at the rallies.
On this occasion, the press attaché of the Association managed to directly talk with representatives of the Georgian political elite and find out their opinions on key issues of the territorial integrity of Georgia and Ukraine in the context of Russia’s full-scale aggression in these countries.
Comments were given by members of the Georgian Parliament from the United National Movement David Kirkitadze and Giorgi Vashadze, former Deputy Minister of Justice of the country, as well as member of the Georgian Parliament and leader of the Law and Justice party Tamar Charkviani, and Giorgi Baramidze, former Minister of Defense and Vice Speaker of the Parliament, and now political secretary of the United National Movement
Russia traditionally uses not only the occupied territories to influence neighboring countries, but also the large, oligarchic businesses under its control. Ivanishvili, Teder, Shor… How can these processes be counteracted and how effective can sanctions mechanisms be here?
Giorgi Vashadze – I think that the international community should work in coordination against, first of all, identifying such facts. And, secondly, to respond to this through sanctions. To put it bluntly, we are talking about using certain jurisdictions to circumvent sanctions. I believe that it is necessary to create a special large group of researchers at the international level who will identify such facts in any country. And then we will be able to talk about specific measures of real response. After all, in those countries that are used to bypass sanctions, law enforcement agencies cooperate with their Russian “colleagues” and businesses or simply “turn a blind eye to this”, receiving some income from this. Based on this, I still do not see a real mechanism for identifying and then responding to them. Therefore, I think, knowing about the disparate work in this direction, it would be good to create a single mechanism in the European Union or the United States, – believes Giorgi Vashadze.
All the years of the occupation of Crimea, Russia has been declaring some kind of “economic and social cooperation” of the peninsula with the regimes in Sukhumi and Tskhinvali. At the same time, independent authors sometimes write about the growth in the volume of weapons, drugs and human trafficking, including child prostitution and pornography under the guise of the “gray” occupation zone. What is the role of the current Georgian authorities in addressing these challenges?
Giorgi Vashadze – I will say frankly that there is not a single fact about the transportation of weapons or drugs through the territory of Georgia. To a greater extent, Georgia was concerned with the information and the possibility of using its territory for the transportation of dual-use cargo with the final destination – Russia. I believe that this is the issue that requires deep monitoring. There were incidents when tankers with sanctioned Russian oil entered Georgian ports. After we “raised a big fuss” about this, such tankers were removed. I think that by the beginning of Russia’s open invasion of Ukraine in February 2022, the world mechanisms were not ready for such a situation. Therefore, it is necessary to create new mechanisms to identify and respond to each such fact. My own analysis, which I am trying to conduct, suggests that, unfortunately, today there is more “talk about some facts” than concrete confirming information is actually collected about them. This was especially true for Georgia. But here the very active opposition and civil sector, and the ruling circles in Tbilisi, if they participate in any schemes, behave extremely cautiously. They are afraid, because there is no authoritarian regime in Georgia yet. I think that a more systematic approach is needed in order to have more specific evidentiary information: facts, evidence. After all, Russia is trying to create an absolutely new environment on the territory that is increasing due to the seizure of neighboring lands: South Ossetia, Abkhazia, Crimea, Donbass, Lugansk, Zaporizhzhya and Kherson. In fact, the Kremlin is creating some enclaves that are recognized as “independent” or “their own – Russian” territories. Through these enclaves, a new fake environment of so-called states is formed. And, of course, Russia uses these encalaves for crime and criminality. This once again confirms my main thesis: it is necessary to create new international mechanisms, the activities of which will keep in focus, including such “gray zones”. For example, the so-called “Tskhinvali jurisdiction” was used to establish bank accounts, – the source said.
Russian aggressive policy uses energy as a weapon, this is noticeable in the occupied territories of Ukraine. How does the energy aggression of the Russian Federation affect the economy of Georgia and the Black Sea region as a whole?
David Kirkitadze – Russian policy has a very negative impact on our entire region. And not only in the economy. Ultimately, harm is caused in all directions. No reasonable investor will consider investing in regions around which a fierce war is going on. Therefore, Russia is the factor that scares off all investors. Secondly, Russia appropriates all the resources in the territories it occupies. When the Kremlin “started” the Olympics in Sochi, organizing an unprecedented construction there, almost everything suitable for construction – sand, stones – was removed from the rivers of Abkhazia. Thus, enormous ecological damage was caused to both the flora and fauna of the region. They behave like savages, not seeing anything in their path at all: neither international, nor ecological norms and rules. The occupiers took away almost everything from the Black Sea cities of Abkhazia, without asking anything even from the collaborationist authorities they appointed. Those people who remained in Abkhazia, they know this very well and are very unhappy about it. But they do not have the opportunity to exercise their legal rights to defend themselves or protest, they found themselves captives of Russia. And the Russian state is now exploiting the occupied territories in its own interests, causing irreparable damage to local life and space. At one time, photographs from Abkhazia were published, they depicted heavy equipment that was taking away everything necessary for the construction of Olympic facilities in Sochi. They act like this everywhere: in Crimea and on other lands seized from Ukraine. Wherever they go: in Latin America, in Africa, it’s the same thing everywhere, – David Kirkitadze pointed out.
In Ukraine, the Russian occupation has led to extremely negative environmental consequences, including the well-known consequences of the explosion of the Kakhovka hydroelectric power station and the reduction of the dolphin population. What is the environmental situation in the Russian-occupied territories of Georgia, what are the main challenges there?
David Kirkitadze – I would also like to speak about the second occupied region of Georgia – Tskhinvali. After occupying this territory, the Kremlin began building military bases and roads there. They consider this mountainous region as suitable for the deployment of military facilities, despite the fact that their construction causes enormous environmental damage to nature. But this region, covered with gorges, is not threatened by anyone. If they really wanted the people living there to be well, why don’t they build houses and other civilian facilities? And how will such a “military” region develop? Firstly, the people there will be constantly under tension, because they will think that military bases are a sign that something may happen. And secondly, when the construction of facilities is subordinated to military goals, then in such areas no one will care about the comfortable life of the people, they suffer because of this. Local collaborationist politicians get rich by exploiting the people, this is true not only in Abkhazia, but also in Crimea, I am sure. Today, the situation in Abkhazia is very tense, and cardinal disagreements have come to a head. Even in the local parliament, which is undoubtedly a puppet government, there is a serious struggle to prevent Russia from taking all the resources that it is trying to illegally export. The people are putting pressure on the government to stop handing out natural and other wealth of the region and the people to Russians. In turn, the Kremlin demands that forest lands, lands, summer cottages, etc. be transferred to federal ownership. Crimeans need to pay close attention to what is happening with Sukhumi, Gagarakh, and other cities that have turned into nothing under Russian occupation. Perhaps they, like the Abkhazians, will begin to come to their senses. There is no need to fall “captive” to Russian propaganda, the Georgian parliamentarian is sure.
Last year, the aggressor began actively developing a naval base in Ochamchire and is gradually transferring part of its fleet there from occupied Crimea. What are the main challenges and threats that you see for Georgia and the Black Sea region as a whole from this base?
Tamar Charkviani – I want to remember those difficult days that Georgia endured due to the fault of the Russian occupier. They literally invaded our land – Abkhazia. Under the name of the elder brother, they committed a massacre right on Rustaveli Avenue. It was April 9, 1989. Then, in 2008, they attacked us again and took away the core of Georgia. And, as they are accustomed to lying, they blamed us for all the sins: supposedly small Georgia started the war. In truth, Russia started the war, of course! Because no one can start a war on their own territory, especially a small and unprotected state. They blamed us, slandered President Mikheil Saakashvili. All of Europe and the world saw the true face of the terrorist Putin. Saakashvili was arrested, they are sitting in prison, he is sitting as Putin’s prisoner. Now he remains a political prisoner, – said Ms. Tamar.
How do you assess the prospects of Russia’s attempt to annex Abkhazia, Tskhinvali or other territories of Georgia, according to the “Crimean scenario”, and what role will the current Georgian government play in this, in your opinion?
Tamar Charkviani – What is happening now in Ochamchire is a continuation of the occupation of Georgia. Unfortunately, the Georgian government does not react to these collaborationist actions. It also acts as a collaborationist organization. Russia has been an occupier under all Georgian presidents. There was no Saakashvili in the 90s, but the Kremlin still took Abkhazia. Unfortunately, the Russian government, which has turned into a terrorist, wants to take over everything, including the Black Sea. Finally, I can say that in Georgia, I console myself, the choice has long been made. We held referendums twice. The people have already chosen democratic values, and the Georgian people are “for” the integrity of Georgia. The Georgian people are “for” the integrity of Ukraine! I am sure that we will win! – emphasized the interlocutor.
What steps can the democratic forces of Georgia take to support the International Crimean Platform and the Peace Formula put forward by Ukraine in the current conditions?
Giorgi Baramidze – The date that everyone knows as August 8, 2008, the beginning of a full-scale aggression – is the fruit of Russian propaganda. In fact, Russia’s war against Georgia began on August 7. According to Russian propaganda, the Kremlin responded to Georgia’s attack. But the facts listed in Ambassador Toliani’s report show that Russian aggression began on August 7. And it is on this day that the memory of the fallen is honored, memorials and cemeteries are visited. This is natural, because we could not start anything on our territory and have never crossed into Russian territory. All actions then and to this day take place on our territory. As for Crimea, it is part of Ukrainian territory, this is recognized by the international community, by all countries, including Russia. Anyone who contradicts this is a neo-Russian state, a fascist state led by an individual worse than Hitler – “Putler”, who is an international criminal, there is already a warrant from The Hague for his arrest. He will definitely sit in the dock, like the well-known Milosevic. It is impossible to come up with anything better and fairer than the President of Ukraine and the Parliament of this country. We will do what we can to support Ukraine’s initiatives in any format. It is necessary to support the territorial integrity of Ukraine everywhere, both on the issue of Crimea and on the issues of its other occupied territories. We in Georgia are especially indebted to Ukraine, and we are especially worried about Ukraine. If in the West, perhaps, not all politicians realize this yet, but we are sure that if this bloody dictator Putin is not stopped, without the victory of Ukraine there will be no real peace and quiet in Europe and in the world, – said Giorgi Baramidze.
In 2022, the Russian occupiers used the so-called “International Settlement Bank”, formally registered in Tskhinvali, and most likely having connections in Tbilisi, as a “financial gasket” on the captured mainland Ukrainian territory, and earlier – in Crimea. How do you assess the role of the current Georgian authorities in laundering funds in the occupied territories?
Giorgi Baramidze – This is a very painful question. The current Georgian authorities are already openly anti-Western. They have long been openly anti-Ukrainian. And they are practically, accordingly, pro-Russian, carrying out the orders of the Kremlin. It was we, the party of Mikheil Saakashvili, who is still in prison because he dared to contradict Russian interests, who managed to unite the people of our country and, with the support of not only the army but also the international community, contain Russia’s aggression and save Georgia’s statehood. We have long said that the current government in Georgia is Russian government through oligarchs. The government is implementing Putin’s plan and tasks in order to turn Georgia’s back on the West and the civilized world, to return it to the orbit of Russia’s exclusive influence. Therefore, the occupation authorities in the occupied territories are part of one scenario. The authorities in Tskhinvali and Sukhumi perform their function in it. The central government in Tbilisi also plays the role of a buffer and a “gray zone”. At its will, the occupation authorities can play the role of a “black hole” through which elements, products and things are delivered to Russia. Putin has a huge interest in maintaining exactly this kind of power in Georgia – a “fifth column” – in order to prevent it from joining the European Union and NATO, and on the other hand, to use the “gray zone”, supposedly independent states and their funds, banks for his dirty purposes, the interlocutor concluded.
Press attaché of the Association
Ruslan Deremedved
